Living the Good Life
Thucydides has a ______view of human nature. He, according to Nietzche, examines reality and does not believe the good life is easily attained.
pessimistic
Who won the Peloponnesian War?
who are the Spartans/Lacedemonians?
What person highlighted in the text exemplifies what Thucydides thinks of human excellency, and why?
Pericles! Thucydides believes that his attributes make him a just leader, and he says on page 56 that Athens was “greatest under him” in peacetime, and that he had excellent leadership skills during times of crisis. One prominent quote on page 57 explains “whenever he saw them insolently bold out of season, he would put fear into them with his speeches; and again, when they were afraid without reason, he would raise up their spirits and give them courage.”
Thucydides wrote his works like a historical narration, with speeches and his own analysis woven in between. By contrast, Plato wrote his works in the style of?
Dialogue
American novelist and short story writer, James Lane Allen, states that "adversity does not build character, it reveals it." Thucydides similarly notes that in times of hardship human nature is “laid bare.” Provide one example from Thucydides’ On Justice Power and Human Nature where adversity reveals the true state of human nature. Is this an example of living the good life? There are multiple correct answers
The Peloponnesian War reveals the poor state of human nature. Thucydides states that civil war has “reversed the usual way of using words to evaluate activities” (Woodruff, 90). In the midst of war, actions that are often regarded as immoral are often viewed as moral.
The plague reveals the good and bad state of human nature. (Woodruff 49-50)
What war was going on during the course of this text?
-Peloponesian war
What are some traits that Thucydides views as the most important to human excellence? Can you think of any textual evidence to support your answer?
in leaders, he thinks excellence is obtained from prestige and excellence. He also highly values incorruptible leaders, and courage! Reference page 56/57
Thucydides and Plato both believed that when morality was removed from a society in favor of absolute freedom of each person’s individual passions, ____ was the result?
What is chaos/anarchy*?
In chapter 2, “Origins of the War,” Thucydides states that the Lacedaemonians decided to go to war because they were afraid Anthenian power would continue to grow (Woodruff, 29). How does he suggest “the longest” peace be maintained? Hint: Thucydides' belief that living the good life was tied to courage.
Thucydides suggest that long lasting peace is maintained by refusing to tolerate injustice. This is exemplified in the speech of the Corinthians, which says “you don’t realize that you will enjoy the longest peace if you make your intention clear to never put up with injustice, while using your own military with justice” (Woodruff, 20).
What was the biggest unexpected disadvantage the Athenians faced?
what is the plague?
Does Pericles believe humans achieve excellence as an individual or as a group? Why does he believe this? Can you find textual evidence to support your answer?
He believes that humans flourish together with the help and contribution of their country as a whole. He writes about how even the most wealthy in Athens will fall alongside the impoverished of the city-state, which is proven with the outcomes of the plague. “it does not matter whether a man prospers as an individual: if his country is destroyed, he is lost along with it” (52)
Unlike Plato, whose dialogues center largely around abstract concepts and hypotheticals (with some exceptions), Thucydides focus was on the?
Historical, Practical, Concrete, Real Life examples
According to Thucydides, is Athenian Democracy good for the city or the soul?
You may want to refer to Dr. King’s large group lecture on Pericles and Athenian Democracy.
No! Athenian Democracy was not good for the city or the soul.
Thucydides did not approve of the democratic commoners nor of the radical democracy that Pericles ushered in, but considered democracy acceptable when guided by a good leader (ie. Pericles).
See p.92
What happened after the war?
The Spartans took over and ruled Athens tyrannically. Glaucon supported the tyrants.
Does Thucydides believe that people can fake excellency? What does this say about his view of human nature?
he believes that people fake excellency with dishonesty, which really shows that Thucydides has a very pessimistic outlook on society. One notable quote from page 92 is “for the most part, those with the weakest minds had the greatest success,” (92)
Thucydides and Plato both wrote about historical characters. While Thucydides wrote speeches for these characters in order to give the reader a look into the reasoning behind their decisions, as well as a look at the speakers themselves, Plato wrote historical characters in his Dialogues to be?
stand-ins for a philosophical argument that Plato thought of their historical selves were connected to in some way.
How might one live the good life according to Thucydides?
Think about…
a) The form of government that would encourage the good life.
b) What this form of government aims to prevent.
c) Thucydides pessimistic view on human nature, and what he would consider Good.
a government which is ruled by the many (democracy) nor ruled by the few.
Thucydides support for a more Lacedaemonian model of government (the sacrifice of oneself and desires for the good of the city).
The maintenance of morality and virtue in times of adversity.
why was Athens more likely to win the war?
-sea, wealthy, well defended
Pericles was one of the most famous orators of ancient times. Can you summarize his last speech, and explain how it relates to human excellence?
This is the speech that really emphasizes the importance of working as a nation, rather than as individuals within a city-state. He also mentions how pride is important, but this should only be enhanced with contempt. He values honesty and accountability, because he makes sure to mention how the Athenians were initially in favor of the war.
Due to his rhetorical emphasis on objectivity such as his willingness to equally portray both sides of an argument without interjecting a standard of objective morality, some philosophers such as Nietzche have identified Thucydides as an example of what ideological opponent of Plato’s?
A sophist/sophistry